Another speaker you’re going to get to meet this year if you join us at Next 2012 is Jared Mellinger, a pastor at Covenant Fellowship Church in Glen Mills, Pennsylvania.

Like Kevin, Matt, and Ian, Jared is part of a young generation of pastors that gives me a lot of joy as I think about the future. I won’t get to see all of that future myself, but I can see when I look at these young men that the future is going to be well led, and that the transfer of the gospel between generations is being accomplished. Jared in particular is wise beyond his years (an overused expression, but it’s true) and a gifted expositor of the Word. So enjoy his answers to the questions below, and if you want to hear more of what he has to say about Church Membership, join us in Orlando over Memorial Day weekend at the Next conference.

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When did the local church become important to you and why?

I grew up in the church and my parents faithfully modeled the importance of the local church for me. But when I entered the teen years, I became bored with church. The reason the church was boring to me was that God himself was boring to me, and I was blind to his grace in Christ. 

It wasn’t until I was entering college as a young Christian that I was forced to think through the role of the church in the life of a believer for myself. I saw that some of the most committed Christians on campus were not remotely committed to the local church, and that struck me as strange. When I was 18 years old, I attended a conference in Baltimore called New Attitude. I heard preaching on the importance of the church, and that set me on a course of loving the church that has continued to this day.  

Share just one Scripture passage that has impacted your understanding of the church.
Revelation 1:9-20 (and all of Rev. 1-3) has taught me that Jesus Christ is the Lord of the church, and that he cares greatly about the health of local churches. It is a beautiful picture: The One who loved the church and obtained the church with his precious blood is now risen from the dead and walking among the lampstands, which are the local churches. Jesus fixes his loving attention upon the health and holiness of individual congregations. This is his passion. 

I believe our Savior still walks among the lampstands today. And that picture is more than enough to get me fired up about the church.  

You're speaking at Next 2012 on "The Church and Membership." Why should this matter to us?

Ultimately, the reason we care about church membership is because God cares about church membership. The Bible teaches that bad things happen when the boundary line between the church and the surrounding world becomes fuzzy, and that glorious things happen when that line becomes clear. Membership is about drawing a clear line around the people of God. Also, I am concerned that too many Christians in our generation are unacquainted with the privileges and protection of church membership. 

How would you counsel someone who is looking for a church to join—what should they be looking for?

Don’t care too much about image, the personality of leaders, technological savvy, creativity, the size of the church, and musical style. Those are all overrated. Instead, find a church that treasures the gospel of Jesus Christ, trembles at the word of God, emphasizes preaching and sound theology, seeks the power and presence of the Spirit, abounds in love, faithfully practices the sacraments and church discipline, and is committed to biblical evangelism and missions.       

What would you say is the average church member's job description?

The categories in Acts 2:42-47 come to mind. In no particular order: Praise God in all of life, value teaching and doctrine, be devoted to prayer, attend the meetings of the church, practice fellowship and mutual care, use your gifts, walk in unity, give generously, and witness in word and deed.

At Covenant Fellowship Church, we call every member to treasure, proclaim, and grow in the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are a family of brothers and sisters in Christ that is marked by each member pursuing gospel-astonishment, gospel-advancement, and gospel-application.  

Why don't we just say that everyone is a member of every church, that we're all part of the "universal church?"
While it’s true that all believers are a part of the universal church, God intends for our commitment to the church to find concrete expression in a particular congregation. Church membership is really the only way for us to be truly submitted to pastoral authority (Exactly who is responsible to keep watch over my soul and give an account of me?) and the only way to be subject to the discipline of the church (Exactly who has the right to apply the instructions for church discipline to me or remove me from the church if needed?). In other words, there are clear instructions to Christian leaders and instructions to all Christians that cannot be carried out apart from the idea of membership in a specific, visible local church. 

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Today I want to introduce you to another Next speaker, Ian McConnell. Ian is a pastor at Grace Bible Church in northeast Philadelphia, and really the best way for you to get to know him is to hear him tell his story in his own words. So below is a video of Ian sharing the story of replanting Grace Bible Church, followed by his answers to some questions related to his conference message topic. From all of that, I’m confident you’ll be able to see why I’m excited to have him teaching this year.

By the way, we’re extending the discount on registration for Next until April 22. So if you want to register at the lowest rate possible, there’s still time. I hope you’ll come!

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When did the local church become important to you and why?
I didn’t grow up on “planet Christian” hanging out with followers of Jesus and going to church my whole life, so the very first time I went to a gospel-believing local church was when it became important to me even though I couldn’t have told you why back then.  I was an obnoxious teenager who wasn’t very lovable—seriously—I made loving your neighbor really hard.  But even though I wasn’t very lovable I immediately experienced unconditional love within the walls of that church. I met followers of Jesus, young and old, who loved as they had been loved.  It really was amazing! I think I first started to get God’s love for me through the giving of his Son by the love those people showed me. The local church is where I met Jesus and saw how the Savior’s love radically changes people.  I’ve been crazy about the local church ever since.

Share a Scripture passage that has impacted your understanding of the church.
Ephesians 2:22: “In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.” I am amazed that when we gather as a local church it’s not just us getting together with people—it’s us gathering together in the very presence of God.  God comes to church with us—I love that about the local church!

Why should someone skip a Sunday at their church to come to this conference?
I think attending a conference like NEXT for 1 Sunday out of the year will provide some significant equipping to help you go home and love and serve your local church for the other 51 Sundays out of the year and then some!

What do you hope people walk away with from your message?
I hope people walk away in jaw-dropping wonder that because of the gospel, someday Sundays will be forever!  If you want to know what I mean by that then you’ll just have to come to NEXT! 

What would you say to the person who thinks they can worship God just as well at home or outdoors as they can with the church on Sunday?
I would say that they can’t. Personal access to God’s presence to worship the One who made me and saved me is an undeniable privilege!  It’s a soul-satisfying life-transforming experience to go after God privately. However, it’s only part of what we have been made and saved for.  The sweeping message of the Bible is that God is calling out a people to make His name great through Jesus.  In the garden, God commands Adam to be fruitful and multiply a people.  Outside the garden, God graciously promises Abraham that He will make him the father of many people. All of this points us to God’s ultimate plan to call out a people by the gospel for his glory from every people, tribe, tongue and nation who will worship him forever and ever.  Even the picture God gives us of what forever is going to be like in the book of Revelation makes it clear that for all eternity we will worship God together in his presence because of Jesus.  Gathering in God’s presence with God’s people in our local churches is not only one of our greatest privileges as individual followers of Jesus, it’s also part of submitting to God’s plan for the ages. 

What would you say to the person who thinks "You haven't been to my Sunday meeting?"
There are no perfect Sunday meetings! In fact there is only one place you can go to experience the perfect church gathering—it’s called heaven!  Be thankful for God’s sovereign plan in having you right where you are, pray for your church, serve with your gifts, and take Charles Spurgeon’s advice,

If I had never joined a church till I had found one that was perfect, I should never have joined one at all; and the moment I did join it, if I had found one, I should have spoiled it, for it would not have been a perfect church after I had become a member of it. Still, imperfect as it is, it is the dearest place on earth to us. 

What relationship do Sunday meetings have to heaven?
Many of the promises of the gospel are held out to us in what really smart people call an “already not yet” tension.  Meaning that there are privileges that have been secured for us through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus that we get some of now (already) and the rest of it later when we meet God face to face in heaven (not yet).

Because of Jesus, right now we have the amazing privilege as local churches to gather together in the presence of God to talk to God in prayer; to sing to God with praise and gratitude; to give to God our offerings; to serve our God by building up His people; to reach out to God’s world with the gospel; and to listen to God speak through his Word. These privileges are ours right now.  However, the best is yet to come!  One day because of Jesus we will be together, not just with our individual local churches, but with the whole CHURCH—all of God’s people from all time!  We will talk to God face to face and we will hear from God face to face.  We will sing God’s praise so loud and glorious that it will sound like the waves crashing on the beach.  And here is what I think will be the best thing of all…wait a minute, I think I am giving away too much of my sermon.  I think you get the point.  Gathering with God and God’s people on earth, as wonderful as it is, is but a foretaste of how incredible it will be to gather with God and God’s people in heaven!  That’s the relationship—the Sunday gathering is a foretaste of the heavenly gathering.

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In an earlier post I introduced you to Matt Chandler, who is speaking at Next 2012 on “The Church and Culture.” (Tomorrow is the last day to get a discounted registration, by the way.) Today I want to share with you a similar interview I did with Kevin DeYoung. Kevin is a close friend, a fine pastor, and one of my favorite authors. He is also one of the brightest and most discerning guys I know. He happens to be a Michigan State fan, and although I think the Big 10 is overrated we both hate Duke basketball and that only strengthens our friendship.

Kevin is also no stranger to the Next conference—he has spoken there every year since 2009. Each of his messages have been exceptional and I expect this year’s (on “The Church and Relationships” and “The Church and Holiness”) will be no different. Below are some questions I asked Kevin that relate to the theme of the church, and his two topics at Next 2012 in particular. And if you want to get to know Kevin even better, you can listen to his previous conference messages. 

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When did the local church become important to you and why?
I can’t think of a time when the local church wasn’t important in my life. I was baptized as an infant and have been at church almost every Sunday of my life, usually two times on Sunday. I don’t say this to boast, but to show that I grew up in a family where the importance of church was a given. Church is where we sang, worshiped, heard sermons, prayed, and made friends. It’s always been at the center of my life. I hope I can pass on the same legacy to my children. 

Share just one Scripture passage that has impacted your understanding of the church.  
In Ephesians 1:22-23 Paul says the church is “the fullness of him who fills all in all.” Think about that. God fills all in all, and yet the church is the fullest fullness of our all-filling God. That means the church must be incredibly special and important to God.

You're talking about "The Church and Relationships: How not to be a stupid friend." What's a stupid friend?
A stupid friend is a fool as Proverbs understands a fool. If you want to find out if you are a stupid friend, come to the conference.

What are some of the more common misconceptions people have about relationships in the church? 
I can think of two very common misconceptions. One is to think that relationships are as easy as joining a small group and being in love with the idea of community. Wrong and wrong. Relationships are painful and always disappointing. The other misconception is really a missed opportunity. Churches talk a lot about marriage and parenting. There are classes on both and seminars and conferences and retreats and books aplenty. But we don’t offer much on friendship. We need to do a better job helping Christians with all of their relationships. 

You're also speaking on "The Church and Holiness." You have a book on the topic coming out in the fall. Why is this an important topic to you?
It is important because I want to grow in holiness and because I fear that some “gospel-centered” Christians could stand to be “godliness-centered” as well. 

How should we understand the world "holiness?"
Most simply, holiness is God-likeness. We are to be holy because he is holy.

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In anticipation of Next 2012 I’ve asked some of our guest speakers to share a bit about their perspective on the local church. Matt Chandler was the first one to get back to me, so today I’m posting the questions I sent him and his answers. 

For those of you who don’t know him, Matt is part of a younger generation of pastors building gospel-centered and doctrinally-sound churches that have a heart for evangelism and church planting. As I age, guys like Matt bring me great joy. And I can say that in particular about Matt because I’ve had the opportunity to get to know him personally and to enjoy a memorable meal in his home with his family. I’ve also spent time with the other leaders of The Village Church and these are impressive men who each have a great sense of humor. We laughed a lot together. So although Matt has a world-class public gift, I am most impressed by the man I have gotten to know in private and the church God has used him to help build. That’s why I’m very excited that he’ll be speaking at Next and grateful he was willing to answer some questions here so you could get to know him.

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When did the local church become important to you and why?
The local church has always played a significant role in my life although I did have a season in which I questioned whether or not church as I understood it could effectively engage with the lost and seeking and disciple them to maturity.  The Spirit and the scriptures provided clarity during a tumultuous year in my early 20s and I have been grateful for God’s call on my life to serve and lead His bride ever since.

Share a Scripture passage that has impacted your understanding of the church.
Ephesians 3:8-13.  I know that’s not just one scripture but that’s the text!  That the church is “revealing the manifold wisdom of God” gives me a great deal of vitality in that it reminds me that even on the difficult days the Spirit is using our prayers, meetings and organization to reveal His wisdom.  We get to reflect his glory and perfection in our community and that thought is compelling to me.

You're speaking at Next 2012 on "The Church and Culture." How do you define culture?

Edward Tylor called culture "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man (or woman) as a member of society." I think that’s a robust and accurate definition.

The subtitle of your message is "Reaching out Without Selling Out." What are some ways churches might be tempted to sell out as they seek to affect their communities?

Historically what has happened is we’ve tried to give the God of the Bible a make-over like he’s out of date and no longer “cool” enough to draw people to himself, so we lower standards and try to make God more palatable to the prevailing culture.

What do you think are some of the more pressing issues in our culture today that the church should be addressing?
I think personhood issues like sexual identity, manhood and womanhood, etc., and the formation of deep, real community are the two most pressing.

Do you see distinctions between an individual Christian affecting culture and the local church affecting culture?

I think it naturally plays itself out that way.  At The Village there are people who are engaging culture within the domain of society that they work or play in.  It’s not a program of the church or a project that gets announced from the stage it’s those men and woman being faithful to God’s call on their lives. Meanwhile, the church as an organization has certain partners  that we serve and walk with in the hope of engaging and impacting the culture around us with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Recently C.J. was invited to join Mark Dever in the latest 9Marks Leadership interview with Greg Gilbert, author of What Is the Gospel? (Crossway, 2010). The interview covers the gospel, the kingdom, the church, and how these three are both related and distinct. Along the way Greg displays his unique gift of speaking backwards. ereh netsiL

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Welcome back to the conclusion of my interview with Phil Sasser, senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, North Carolina (part one here).

Phil, what books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?

I have been most inspired by The Sacred Anointing by Tony Sargent and Between Two Worlds by John Stott. I have been most practically instructed by Christ-Centered Preaching by Bryan Chapell.

Of contemporary preachers, I have been probably most influenced by C.J. Mahaney and John Piper. While C.J.’s use of humor and illustrations is a challenge to some of us non-funny, pedantic pastors, his gospel-centered emphasis on application is, in my humble opinion, without equal. John Piper’s preaching emphases on the glory of God, the love of sound doctrine, and passionate commitment to the gospel always inspire me to resist the temptation to entertain or tickle the ears of those to whom I preach.

What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?

My father once told me that you could determine what a man would turn out to be by two things: the friends he kept and the books he read. My father’s love of reading and commitment to spend time doing it was one of the many wonderful gifts that he gave me.

The time I've spent reading has been significant but the fruit has been immeasurable. Jonathan Edwards has two excellent sermons that have been most helpful in my understanding of the importance of the effective use of time: “The Preciousness of Time and the Importance of Redeeming It” from Ephesians 5:16 and “Procrastination or the Sin and Folly of Depending on Future Time” from Proverbs 27:1.

I have an aversion to contemporary time management books.

What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?

It is very difficult to identify the most significant. I suppose that being more aware of the evidences of grace in a person’s life than his/her sin is one of the most significant. My heart's natural inclination is toward pride and self-righteousness. Those natural tendencies are the enemies of our soul. They leads us to ungodly appraisals of ourselves and others. Being intentional in recognizing the Spirit's work of grace in others is a powerful antidote to censoriousness and a negative view of others.

Having the privilege and responsibility to care for the souls of others requires that I have a grace-filled perspective of them. Seeing the fruit of the Spirit first makes me freshly aware of how powerfully God works in a person's life. My eye becomes more attuned to the effectual work of the gospel. It gives me a better perspective even on the challenging aspects of pastoral care. I am filled with a greater appreciation for others and a greater faith for their continued growth in godliness.
 
Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?
 
As our church as grown, I have become more aware of my inadequacies in leading our pastoral team. I am very comfortable in a small church setting. Leading a team of pastors is more of a challenge for me. God has seen fit to overcome my inadequacies by giving us a very godly and mature team. And I have benefited greatly by my relationships with other Sovereign Grace pastors of larger churches.

Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)

I have a gym membership and try to get there 2 or 3 times a week. Mostly I'm trying to rehab my new left knee. I love to play golf, but it is of minimal exercise value.

Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?

My first love was baseball, but those days are long gone, so it has been replaced by golf. My favorite sports to watch are college football (Ohio State), college basketball (Ohio State and N.C. State), major league baseball (Reds), and golf.
 
What do you do for leisure?
 
Reading is the constant. I also watch romantic comedies with Cassie. I'll probably catch a lot of grief for this admission. When alone I sometimes listen to classic rock and roll. Dylan, The Byrds, and Paul Simon are at the top of that list. I have also been know to shoot pool at the local pool hall and I have a weakness for online chess.

If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?

My first profession was a pharmacist (I sold drugs legally as opposed to C.J.), but if I had to choose again, something other than vocational ministry, I would either be a teacher (high school or college) or a lawyer.

My friend, you would have made an excellent history teacher. I learn new stuff about history whenever I am with you! But I’m so glad that instead of teaching history you were called to teach God’s Word and pastor the wonderful local church in Apex.

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Over the past couple of years I’ve done a series of interviews so that you can “meet” men like John Piper, Carl Trueman, Wayne Grudem, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, David Powlison, and Thabiti Anyabwile. These are men I deeply love and respect. We asked them a set of questions that resulted in some very insightful answers. 
 

But I also like asking these questions of “ordinary” pastors, men less recognized who are laboring faithfully in their local churches. There is nothing ordinary about these men. I consider them extraordinary! I think their work serving the local church is the most important work being done today, work that is worthy of high esteem (1 Thessalonians 5:12–13).
 
Today I want you to meet one extraordinary ordinary pastor: Phil Sasser.

Phil serves as the senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, North Carolina. He has served at that church for 16 of his 29 years in ministry.

Phil and his wife, Cassie, have been married for 40 years and have five children and 15 grandchildren.

Meet Phil Sasser.

Phil, please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?

I have some insomnia, so wake up time can vary somewhat. Usually I get up between 6 AM – 7 AM. The first 45 minutes in my office is spent in reading, meditation, and prayer. The M’Cheyne Reading plan has served as a base for my daily Bible reading. This year, I am supplementing M’Cheyne by reading two pages from Herman Bavinck’s Our Reasonable Faith. I have a daily prayer agenda that varies with each day of the week.

What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?

(a) Charity and Its Fruits by Jonathan Edwards (this is about my fifth time reading through it) and The Work of Christ by G. C. Berkouwer.

(b) Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor by D. A. Carson

(c) Truman by David McCullough
 
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?

Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray is one. Murray’s treatment of the atonement is outstanding even though the book is relatively short. It is very rich in content and insight. Murray also covers doctrines such as our union with Christ, adoption, and glorification which sometimes are omitted from discussions on the atonement.
 
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?

By the grace of God I have a good memory. Or is it that I can’t remember what I’ve forgotten? But if it is a particularly good quote, I copy it and put it in my sermon files on the pertinent subject or text.

If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?

John Calvin, because of both his depth and breadth of theological writing. There is a wonderful simplicity in his commentaries. He is writing to the ordinary pastors of his day, so he “cuts to the chase” quickly. Calvin’s commentaries have a focus on the gospel and the doctrines of grace. On the other hand, you can soar with Calvin in The Institutes.
 
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?

C.J.’s emphasis on the centrality of the gospel has obviously affected every aspect of my pastoral ministry. That is especially true of my preaching. I grew up, spiritually, in an atmosphere where the gospel was often marginalized or overshadowed by other, more secondary doctrines such as spiritual gifts, discipleship, eschatology, or ecclesiology. While these are important biblical themes, they must never supplant the gospel in focus or priority in preaching. We must never assume the gospel and, as C.J. has emphasized, there should be a sighting of the gospel (the cross & resurrection) in every sermon. This emphasis has done more, I think, to improve my preaching than any other counsel or criticism.

To be continued tomorrow in part 2...

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If you haven’t met Carl Trueman you are in for a ride that will take us, well, nobody knows. All we can be certain of is that Bruce Springsteen will likely appear at some point.

Dr. Trueman’s official title is Professor of Historical Theology and Church History at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. He describes himself as a British round peg jammed into an American square hole.

He has written, contributed to, or edited a library of books. He is also the author of many “critical writings” and “unpopular essays” that appear online and have been published in two books: The Wages of Spin: Critical Writings on Historic and Contemporary Evangelicalism (2005) and Minority Report: Unpopular Essays on Everything from Ancient Christianity to Zen Calvinism (2007).

You can keep up with his most recent essays at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website here.

In his essays Carl teaches lessons from history and pokes a bit at the evangelical church’s fondness for therapeutic leanings, entertainment, celebrity culture, and flippancy. And he stabs away with one index finger tap at a time. Carl writes:

I take some perverse pride in the fact that I can only type with one finger on each hand, romantically seeing this lack of polish as making me the modern equivalent of the 1930s hack journalist, cigarette hanging from the corner of his mouth, glass of bourbon on the bedside table, hammering out copy on an old typewriter in a dingy motel room.

That’s Carl. And with quotes like this we can be certain that 200 years from now there will be a Carl Trueman Society where enthusiasts gather to exchange favorite lines and lament that they could not meet the man in person. This interview is for them.

Meet Carl Trueman.

Carl, thanks for your time. Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?

My children have to be at school by 7:30, so I rise at about 6:15 to 6:30. I usually wait until I arrive at work, ca. 8 a.m., to have devotions. Westminster offices do not open till 8:30 so this gives me a half hour of peace and quiet. I typically read four chapters of the Bible. I read continually from Genesis to 2 Chronicles; from Ezra to Malachi (excluding the Psalms); from Matthew to Acts; and from Romans to Revelation; I finish with a Psalm or two, reading continually through the Psalter. At this precise moment, I am in Numbers, Job, John, and 1 Corinthians, with the daily Psalm being 143. Prayer then involves adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication. The simple ACTS pattern that I learned at college.

What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?

(a) I have recently reread Pilgrim’s Progress. A brilliant, deceptively simple masterpiece whose characters never cease to amuse and provoke. I’m also about to start Tom Schreiner’s Magnifying God in Christ: A Summary of New Testament Theology, just released by Baker.

(b) Pastoral Theology in the Classical Tradition by Andrew Purves. A student recommended this book to me after a class I gave on the pastoral manuals written by John Chrysostom and Gregory the Great. It is a study of these men, plus Gregory Nazianzus, Martin Bucer, and Richard Baxter, as they reflected on the task of being a pastor. Much that they have to say (for example, how to handle criticism) is of perennial relevance; and they also focus on what is of lasting significance in the ministerial task, not the kind of managerial/consumerist impulses which drive much pastoral theory today.

(c) Ian Ker’s biography of John Henry Newman, Fergus Kerr’s Twentieth-Century Catholic Theologians and Ruth Rendell’s Portobello (I’m a sucker for hard-boiled and psychological crime fiction—anything by Raymond Chandler, Ian Rankin or Ruth Rendell).

Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?

This is easier to answer in terms of authors: I constantly dip into Martin Luther’s writings; I appreciate James Packer’s books; I enjoy John Henry Newman’s writings, especially his sermons; and I find the great creeds and catechisms of the church to be a great source of delight—they keep my faith simple, focused on the essentials, and in touch with the church throughout the ages.

When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?

Generally, I read with a pencil in hand and underline key passages. Never a pen, mind you—that would be too permanent and spoil it for whoever owns the book next. I also carry a moleskine notebook with me to make any extended notes on a given book, and, indeed, on any conversation or thing I see or hear that may be useful. I chose moleskine because I gather that Ernest Hemingway used them. A vain indulgence, I’m afraid. I also keep a daily journal where, if a book is particularly important or insightful, I will make note.

If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?

Yikes. That is a tough question. Luther would be an obvious choice because of his passion for the gospel and his sense of humour; Thomas Aquinas was no doubt a great teacher, though, as a Protestant, I would clearly have issues with him on key points; and Gregory Nazianzus would have been a remarkable figure to work under, especially on the issue of connecting the doctrine of God to worship. But, on balance, I think I’d have to opt for John Owen: massive learning, keen theological insight, passionate churchman, and fine preacher.

To be continued in part 2...

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Welcome back to the conclusion of my interview with Ken Sande, the founder and president of Peacemaker Ministries. Read part one of the interview here.

Ken, what single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?

Jonathan Edwards’s Resolution #5: “Resolved, never to lose one moment of time; but improve it the most profitable way I possibly can.” I reflect on this resolution regularly. I don’t even come close to living up to it, but Edwards’s example spurs me on.

What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?

I lead of team of highly motivated and creative people who are trying to serve the church around the world. We simply could not do this if they saw this as merely being an 8-5 job. Therefore, rather than forcing my vision and ideas on them, I’ve learned (often through their feedback) that I have to take time to listen to them, understand their passions, learn from their experience and insights, and guide the way in developing a sense of ownership in a shared vision and strategy that every one of us wholeheartedly and passionately supports.

Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?

I am frequently discouraged by how little of what I think I need to do I actually accomplish. This has been a lifelong struggle: I always want to do more than I am able to do. Coupled with this is my weakness to commit to things I’m unable to follow through on in a timely manner. With my dear wife’s help, I am steadily learning to accept a wisdom principle David Powlison shared with me many years ago: “Not every opportunity constitutes a calling.” Bit by bit, I’m learning to pray more about opportunities before I commit to them and seek to discern those few very important things God wants me to do at any given time.

Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)

I run 3-4 miles at least five times a week with longer runs on weekends. I also have a universal gym and use it to maintain muscle tone three times a week. My favorite exercise is simply getting outdoors and hiking through the Beartooth Mountains.

Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?

My family owned a ranch when I was young, so I spent most of my free time riding horses and working cattle rather than playing team sports. (One of my favorite spectator sports is still watching cutting horses work cattle, which is one of the most remarkable examples you’ll ever see of a man and an animal working in complete synchronization.) I have lately developed a strong interest in football, since my son is playing tight end and defensive back for Central High School in Billings. My wife is actually more knowledgeable of this sport than I am, so she is steadily bringing me up to speed.

What do you do for leisure?

My favorite leisure activity is to simply enjoy my family in conversation, laughter, games, or watching classic movies. When we have more time together, I love to hike, backpack, or cross country ski in the Beartooth Mountains south of Billings. A few years ago, our family had the privilege of taking snowcoaches to Old Faithful Lodge in Yellowstone National Park on New Year’s Day with David Powlison’s family. Another year, Scott Somerville’s family (from Covenant Life Church) came out to Montana to backpack with us. I’ve invited C.J. out to go backpacking several times, but I finally got the distinct impression that he was not as enamored as I am with climbing up mountains and sleeping on the ground.

If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?

My professional education was in mechanical engineering and law. If I wasn’t in ministry, I would have pursued a career that coupled these two professions.

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Ken Sande has written the finest book I’ve read on the topic of conflict resolution. It’s titled The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict (Baker, 2004). I have read and re-read it over the years and I have recommended it to pastors and churches around this country. And given that The Peacemaker has now been published in ten languages, I’m sure this book has spread around the world, too. It is on my short list of must-reads for every pastor.

Ken Sande lives Billings, Montana. He is an attorney and the president of Peacemaker Ministries, an initiative he founded 25 years ago. There is much to learn from Ken and I am thankful that he’s taken some time to answer a few questions about life and ministry.

Meet Ken Sande.

Thanks for your time, Ken! Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?

I wake up at 5:30 and spend the first 60 minutes of the day with the Lord. To wake my mind up, I first read from The Valley of Vision and Spurgeon’s Morning and Evening. I then read a Psalm (to inspire praise) or a chapter in Proverbs (to be warned and gain wisdom for the day), and then a chapter in the Bible that my church has designated for the day (currently I’m in the book of Acts), which I also discuss with my family at dinner. I keep a journal of the insights God gives me from this reading. I then spend 10-15 minutes memorizing and meditating on Scripture passages or quotes from the saints that are especially meaningful to me (which I organize on my iPaq in a system that allows me to memorize and review passages on a progressive daily, weekly, and monthly basis). I spend the balance of my devotional time with prayer for my family, church, and ministry.

What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?

For my soul, I am reading J.I. Packer’s Knowing God, which is one of my all time favorites. (My entire staff is currently reading this book as well.) For pastoral ministry, I am reading Tim Laniak’s While Shepherds Watch Their Flocks (which is featured in our new Leadership Opportunity resource set). For personal enjoyment, I’m reading Shelby Foote’s three volume narrative on The Civil War. (Quite an irony, I know, a peacemaker enjoying books on war; the reason is that I find many parallels between military wars and the spiritual warfare I deal with through my ministry.)

Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?

I first read J.I. Packer’s Knowing God in my late twenties and have gone back to it again and again to refresh my awe for God by drawing on Packer’s remarkable insights into the Lord’s holiness and love.

When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?

I highlight key passages in books as I read them, and then transfer select quotes into my memory/meditation system so that I can reflect on them on a regular basis. I often pick up favorite books and thumb through them, reviewing many of the highlighted sections.

If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?

I could happily listen to J.I. Packer read a telephone book; I just love his accent. Fortunately, when I’ve heard him teach, he has always dealt with far weightier content, always with a humility, clarity, and sense of humor that I find to be both winsome and edifying. I own many of the books he has authored and refer to them again and again.

What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?

I teach far more frequently than I preach, and focus almost exclusively on the practical peacemaking message of Scripture. The most important advice I’ve ever received is “Be true to the intent of the passage (rather than reading my own meaning into it), keep it simple, and make it real and relevant through personal stories.” I’ve found this to be especially important with a topic as challenging as peacemaking.

First, peacemaking is a highly theological topic. Justice, reconciliation, relationships, church unity, and our witness for Christ are on the line when we are in conflict. Therefore it is critical that rather than simply following our own feelings or ideas, we accurately discern what God is promising and commanding.

Second, when emotions rise (which is usually the case in conflict), rational thinking usually declines. Therefore it is helpful to organize God’s peacemaking principles in simple, memorable terms that provide a clear track to run on (which is why I rely so heavily on acrostics like the “4 Gs,” the “7As,” and the “PAUSE” principle of negotiating).

Third, peacemaking is challenging and sometimes seems impossible. If all I do is teach the principles, people can easily think, “That may work for someone who is an expert like Ken, but it won’t work for someone as messed up as me.” But when I add a personal example of my own failings as a husband, father, or mediator, and then describe how God graciously forgives me and redeems the situation as I apply his principles, many people later tell me, “When you shared that story, I realized you struggle with the same sins I struggle with, and that God’s grace can work through me as it did through you.”

What books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?

I have been blessed to sit under two of the best preachers I know for the last 25 years: Rev. Al Edwards and Rev. Alfred Poirier from my home church, Rocky Mountain Community Church. Most of what I’ve learned about preaching and teaching has come through their examples. Their careful exegesis, thoughtful organization, relevant applications, and timely humor have shaped my teaching.

To be continued in part 2...

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